Topic

    FStephenMasek
    Rehberg attack on RRP would kill lead consulting business
    Topic posted September 20, 2011 by FStephenMasekContributor, last edited January 19, 2012
    603 Views, 8 Comments
    Title:
    Rehberg attack on RRP would kill lead consulting business
    Content:

    Consultants need to act immediately to prevent the death of RRP, and with it most of the lead consulting business.  Rep. Rehberg's bill has passed the House, and is now in the Senate.  What have you done to stop his misguided and misinformed effort to kill RRP over the issue of "test kits?"  He is supported by slumlords (I'm a landlord, but not a slumlord) who want to keep ignoring lead and contractors worried about losing business to those who will ignore RRP.  Consultants with highly accurate XRFs are readily available, and for all but trivial projects can perform an isnepction for less than the cost of the inaccurate "test kits."  We need to encourage EPA to simply delete all references to "test kits" from RRP.   Have you contacted your senators to urge them to  kill the Rehberg provisions in the appropriateions bill?  Have you contacted Rehberg?  Have you contacted various organizations supporting his bill to  tell them the facts that XRF inspections are readily available, accurate, and less expensive than the "test kits?"

    Just in case somebody brings up an old misconception - XRF testing is good enough for OSHA compliance.  Nobody really belives that paint found to contain low levels above zero could produce exposures which exceed the PELs.  Contractors simply need to do a better job of collecting exposure assessment data.

    Comment

     

    • jessedphillips
      posted September 21, 2011 by jessedphillipsElite Contributor

       I'd love a reference for this statement: "Nobody really belives that paint found to contain low levels above zero could produce exposures which exceed the PELs."  Can you provide one? 

    • geochemistry
      posted September 21, 2011 by geochemistryMember

      KILL RRP!  I bought an older second home, and knew the possibility of lead based paint.  Not a concern, but because a tree limb had rubbed against roof flashing, the sale was delayed a month - not on mine, my bank or the seller's concern - but because the home inspector wouldn't sign off.  Protecting the uninformed should stop with information.  The onerous and exorbitant added work/costs won't benefit anyone except the quick-buck artists, and amounts to a regulatory extortion.

    • Joseph Burley, Freelance Enviro-Tech
      posted September 21, 2011 by Joseph Burley, Freelance Enviro-TechSuper Contributor

      Test kits aren't inaccurate, just not quantitative. They have been exhaustively tested and EPA approved them after finding them to have an error rate in the ballpark with XRF. The problem is test kits being used incorrectly on very thick paint films. They are also can lead to some false positives (if you are comparing to XRF). This issue is convuluted by the fact that EPA "recognizing" a certain brand of test kit is not the same as "approval" because it meets a more stringent false positive criterion specified in the rule.

      I agree with EPA "recognizing" rather than "approving" a test kit that may not be acheivable under current manufacturing standards w/o understanding the full technical legalities of test kit performance. Someone from EPA recently spoke at a state lead conference and stated that EPA does not officially recognize XRF as acceptable for RRP compliance but that they are "working on this." The problem I believe is that the XRF LBP standard of 1.0 mg/cm3 is arbitrarily too high and outdated and that EPA recognizes a lot of 0.5-0.9 paint is unregulated/uncontrolled (considering typical contractor ignorance of OSHA) and is being sanded or otherwise aggressively disturbed and causing a lead hazard. Therefore, I suspect EPA recognizes the existing test kits, while not perfect, tend to be more protective of EPA's health standards (actually HUD dust levels), which in contrast, are very low.

      I looked up two articles on Rep Rehberg's bill and neither seems to understand the supposed "false positive" issue.

      I appreciate your heads up on this. However, I think consultants have zero (ok, how about non-detect) political influence. Nevertheless, I think we should argue for or against something on its scientific merits rather than be like all the other special interest groups that are thinking only of their own. My XRF project revenue this yr was about 30k, compared to about $500 for test kit work. Of course I would like more XRF work and see the test kits go away from a business perspective. But ultimately, I want my clients to respect my profession for being scientifically-based and come to accept regulatory cost burdens that are reasonable and flexible that they won't think is wasted money.

      I think you threw Jesse off track by saying "no one believes" as if including yourself rather than saying, "the problem is that no one (contractors) believes..." I took it the same way until you followed with the important note that almost no one is collecting NEA data for lead.

      https://www.acca.org/archives/industry-resources/government-affairs/hot-air/5304

    • FStephenMasek
      posted September 21, 2011 by FStephenMasekContributor

      It is amazing that there is, thus far, so little support for jointly defending an important part of the current consulting business. 

      By the way, for those who do not know, we are also in the good news business, as lead-based paint is far less common than many think.  We have never tested a house or apartment built 1960 - 1978 where more than 1% of the painted surface areas was coated with lead-based paint.  Many have none.  The oldest building we have tested with no lead-based paint was constructed in 1955.  Even older buildings do not have it weverywhere.  For example, we inspected a 1928 stucco apartment building with LBP on exterior and interior wood work, but just 19% of the walls and ceilings.

      I did intend to include myself.  Let's put it the other way - does anyone have any good data to show that non-LBP produces exposures over the PELs?   Follow the money - those pucshing chip samples want to make money collecting or analyzing them.   We've even seen crooked consultants claim that any level of lead above zero requires an abatement contractor and a consultant to monitor and coument their work!

    • Joseph Burley, Freelance Enviro-Tech
      posted September 21, 2011 by Joseph Burley, Freelance Enviro-TechSuper Contributor

      Ok, I see how I misunderstood you--because in my mind the test kits are more of a compliance tool for EPA and HUD rather than OSHA because the OSHA standard applies to any detectable level of lead. You make a good point that whatever little NEA lead data are out there isn't typically shared. As far as I know, OSHA doesn't formally recognize the 1.0 LBP standard--instead they regulate "lead-containing paint" at the 0.06% threshold, which once could estimate to be in the ballpark of 0.1-0.5 mg/cm2 although they are obviously not directly comparable. Whether or not disturbing non-LBP above 0.06% can actually exceed PELs is an open question--as you say, show me the data, but nevertheless the regulations are clear that compliance with the lead standard is required, and most contractors and landlords are ignoring or oblivious to that requirement. I would rather be concerned with the dust left from RRP projects and how it might affect children than how lead dust might affect those heavy smoking contractors who are typically exposed to all sorts of crud and for the most part don't care (pardon the stereotyping).

      Again, the LBP definition is too high and it should and probably will be lowered--as you may know, some states have passed a more stringent definition. That would dampen the "good news" some but I suppose generate more Pb business.

    • FStephenMasek
      posted September 24, 2011 by FStephenMasekContributor

      There is enough of a problem getting people to pay attention to lead with a definition of LBP at 1 mg/cm2.  Lowering the threshold would not help.  Here in southern CA, the threshold is > 0.7 in Los Angeles County (except Pasadena and Long Beach), and for all practical purposes is >= 0.5 in the city of San Diego.  It seems mightly silly that paint on a building in LA or San Diego which would ne negative almost everywhere else has to be considered positive.  The other problem with the lower levels is that the plus or minus indication on the XRF becames far more significant (e.g. 0.5 +/- 0.3. 0.7 +/- 0.1, and so forth).       

    • FStephenMasek
      posted October 14, 2011 by FStephenMasekContributor

       I have new information.

      I spoke with someone in Representative Rehberg's office this week, and was told that contractors in Montana and other states which are mostly rural complained that consultants were few and far between, so they want an accurate chemical "test kit.".   I pointed out that consultants have long been needed to test for asbestos, so the far out projects should already have been more costly due to the travel time required for the consultant.  In many cases the same consulting company provides both services.  EPA's web site show 14 lead inspection companies located in Montana, and companies located elsewhere could also provide services there.


      Of course, it seems obvious that they contractors were and are ignoring asbestos, and want to keep ignoring lead.  Thus, they (and many building owners) need mirrors to see why there was demand to create a regulation such as RRP.


      I encouraged her to also understand that the regulation is putting good contractors between the rock of heavy penalties for non-complaince and the hard place of losing business to those who ignore lead (many are illegals), so EPA may have shot themselves in the foot by not requiring owners to have buildings inspected.  I suggest giving apartment owners three years to have all of their buildings inspected, and requiring that owner-occupied houses be inspected when sold, or before renovation work is done. 

      If someone chooses to have a property far out, everything will be more expensive, not just lead testing.   

       
      Of course, this applies to renovations, not simple projects involving only wood. 

    • Joseph Burley, Freelance Enviro-Tech
      posted October 15, 2011 by Joseph Burley, Freelance Enviro-TechSuper Contributor

      Thanks for the additional info. It sort of ties a few issues together regarding lead. First of all, I would say something that a governmental regulator probably can't say. Lead paint is mostly an inner city problem and therefore the regulation and the enforcement is going to target those areas. If you think about it, there are actually very few things that are uniformly enforced from urban to rural areas when you think of things such as building codes, OSHA safety etc. I hope regulations wouldn't be driven by rural concerns. Thats not to say there aren't a few lead poisonings that could be prevented in rural areas, but $ spent in urban areas is going to deliver more benefit. I tend to think that people in rural areas are generally more healthy (less pollution/better diet) and if living off the land to a degree, the increased Ca/Zn etc in the diet improves their resistance to lead absorption.  This same reasoning supports decreasing the LBP threshold for the inner cities (perhaps to 0.5) but leaving it at say 1 for rural areas, thereby giving the remote residents some relief.

      While you are correct that living in a remote area increases a lot of costs such as gas/groceries etc, you can't necessarily say that people can afford to live out there by choice. Land is generally cheaper, jobs pay less etc.

      As far as I know, EPA RRP audits are targeting urban areas. I can't imagine scarce EPA resources being stretched to audit or enforce regs in rural areas. Therefore, right or wrong, people are going to tend to let lead issues slide in rural areas. I still see a lot of sloppiness and disregard for the regs in the urban Detroit area. If test kits are used at least half the time in remote areas, I think that is a good starting point. Again, I think test kits tend to give more false positives than false negatives and therefore I don't quite understand the concern with them.