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    dcrocker
    flammable waste traps and hydraulic hoists
    Topic posted September 24, 2009 by dcrockerElite Contributor, last edited January 19, 2012
    1505 Views, 10 Comments
    Title:
    flammable waste traps and hydraulic hoists
    Content:

    I had a conversation w/ an EP yesterday asking about REC determinations on flammable waste traps and hydraulic hoist cylinders. He raised some interesting questions so I thought the community might want to weigh in:

    "Lately flammable waste traps and hydraulic hoist cylinders have been coming up a lot in both Phase I ESAs and Trans. Screens.  My basic question is how much of a gray area are the above two as far constituting a REC?  Or are there a lot of variables depending on the circumstances?  Let me be more specific.  Below are two brief examples I recently encountered:

    First Scenario. Working on an ASTM Phase I ESA for lender and SBA.  Property is a current auto detailing shop, formerly did auto repair, had a flammable waste trap with four drains connected to it.  I lifted manhole, trap was full of water with a soap scum and ¼ inch of petroleum present.  Current owner has owned property 5 years, said he never pumped it out.  I confirmed that the trap was connected to the city sewer. Do not know age of trap, probably 25 to 50  years old.  My thoughts, since full, likely not leaking.  Also, in my experience contamination is usually not associated with traps (I have drilled near three in last 7 years and all three were “clean”).  Does this flammable waste trap constitute a REC?  The issue is that I said no in the Phase I Report, the SBA disagreed and said deal is dead unless a Phase II is done.  

    Second Scenario.  Completing a transaction screen for bank. Site property contains two office/warehouse buildings with eight identical suites.  Each suite is made up of narrow office space in front half  with garage/warehouse space with floor drain in back half of suite.  All floor drains connected to flammable trap in each building (two total).  I could not access the traps to look inside (one covered with carpet, other office locked).  Buildings both built in 2005. No current or past tenants likely generated any haz. waste, no petroleum storage tanks inside garages, based on my research.  With current info, do these flammable traps represent a PEC?   

     

    I also have numerous sites I have lately worked on with active or former hydraulic hoist cylinders.  Are these RECs, or what questions should be asked or known to decide if they are a REC?"    

     

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      Matt Fox
      posted September 25, 2009 by Matt FoxElite Contributor

      First Scenario....First of all....maybe a little less scary if you called them oil/water separators, or grease interceptors, or clarifiers.  I don't think I've every heard them called flammable waste traps.  Give a lay-person a report that says there's a flammable waste trap on the property, of course they are going to want it investigated. Next...if it's been there 30 to 50 years and client is sensitive about that kind of thing, then I'd say a Phase 2 is probably a good idea.  I would never conclude that it's not leaking because there is liquid in it.

      Second scenario....How do you even know there was an interceptor in the building without seeing them?  Sounds more likely that you're talking about sewer cleanouts.  I've never seen an interceptor located in an office area of a warehouse.  Almost always located outside the building.  Doesn't sound like a REC to me.

      Hydraulic lifts I'm pretty sure have been discussed previously.  Depends on age/condition of equipment, client sensitivities, future plans for property, your firm's risk tolerance, etc, etc, etc.  Based on my experience, they are not typically called out as REC if they are in good working condition and there are no plans to redevelop the property.

      Matt

      • dcrocker
        posted September 28, 2009 by dcrockerElite Contributor

        Matt, thx for your thoughtful response here. Your point's well-taken that your choice of terminology alone can raise fear on the part of the user. ("You say flammable waste trap, I say oil/water separator.")

        Dianne

    • tomdehn
      posted September 27, 2009 by tomdehnMember

      Hydraulic hoists are always a REC in my opinion. Also look for concrete patch in area of new electric lifts. Most likely an old hyraulic hoist that was removed.

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      mkulka
      posted September 28, 2009 by mkulkaElite Contributor

      Conculding something subsurface is not leaking because it currently holding liquids is bad science.  The water table could be high and cracks or holes in the bottom let the water table in.  This may make the vessel look 1/2 or 3/4 full but does not mean it is tight.  Further more you do not know when the last discharge occured to the drains.  If it was a couple hours or a day with small leaks it could take a while to drain.

      Another dangerous conclusion is "in my experience contamination is usually not associated with traps (I have drilled near three in last 7 years and all three were “clean”.  Your own statistics based upon your limited experience (3 in 7 years is a small subset) does not rule out a concern.  I have drilled many of these and found impact.  Would you make the same judgement of you drill 3 USTs sites and they were all clean that USTs sites are not a concern because your last three were not ?

       

       

      • Tom Speight
        posted September 30, 2009 by Tom SpeightElite Contributor

        Also, could just mean fluid is entering faster than it leaks out.  The soap scum and detailing shop thing suggests that they use a lot of water washing cars.

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      NeilChandler
      posted October 7, 2009 by NeilChandlerMember

      I have supported (environmental risk management) for one of the "big three" auto makers for over 15 years.  They are a VERY conservative client so I have had to opportunity to investigate a lot of dealerships.  At dealership/service facilities they always investigate oil-water separators, catch basins and even trench drains.  They want all wastewater collection devices to be considered a REC whether we observe compromised components or not.  We always advance borings adjacent to the wastewater collection devices and more times than not, we find a VOC, SVOC or metals (above state action levels) and depending on the transaction, we remove the oil-water separators and plug all devices that discharged.  As far as in-ground hydraulic lifts....you have 50-gallons of hydraulic oil under pressure.  They leak most of the time.  And as mentioned above, concrete patchwork is usually indicative of issues.  I have removed hundreds of in-ground lift systems over the past 15 years....most have leaked one time or another.  When the lift repair company goes out to repair a failing lift, they do not care about the impacted soil they find.  They repair the lift, backfill and resurface. 

      All that being said, I make oil-water separators and in-ground hydraulic lifts a REC for any client, both present a material threat of a release, as far as I am concerned. 

      • Dean Komas
        posted October 19, 2009 by Dean KomasMember

        Very good comments.  Thank you.  One question I wanted to ask you is if there is any situation in which the presence of an oil/water separator or hyd. hoist cylinder would not represent a REC?

        Dennis McComas

    • NeilChandler
      posted October 19, 2009 by NeilChandlerMember

      In the case for my client, dependent on the business transaction, sometimes we pump out the wastewater collection devices and inspect them.  If we see no evidence of compromise, you could possibly make the determination that it is not a REC.  For hoists, if there is pressure testing data on active lifts (<3 months old) or "recent" subsurface data in the vicinity of the hoists.  But still, if it is active, you have 40-50 gallons of hydraulic oil under pressure...they typically leak, in my experience.  I have reviewed reports by other consultants that did not make the presence of the hoists a REC at all....I disagreed with that but I guess that is the decision of the EP. 

       

    • Heatherc
      posted November 12, 2009 by HeathercMember

      What is a flammable waste trap?  I'm not familiar with that particular term, but I am guessing that it might be a clarifier or an oil and water separator (or a similar type of structure). If you think it might be over 10-15 years old, the structural integrity could not be verified (ie. potential cracks), and the SBA is involved, I would definitely express concern.  I always ask for copies of the pump-out invoices/waste hauler manifests on-site and try to review the building plans at the local agencies, and when they are not available it should raise a red flag.  Imo, you are putting yourself at risk to make assumptions that the subsurface has not been adversely impacted based on the results of three previous similar phase IIs on different properties that came back non-detect.  Every site is different.  We have done many Phase IIs beneath and around clarifiers where soil and groundwater have proven to be contaminated by a plethora of hazardous substances (especially with the older units that were utilized prior to the implementation of regulatory standards).  The SBA is also extremely conservative with any auto repair type sites with obvious conduits to the subsurface.  The same could be said for the hydraulic lifts.  It just depends on the age, verifiable condition, and documentation.  For instance, I would cite an out-of-use 18 year old hydraulic lift as a REC, but not necessarily a 7 year old, well maintained one.   

                

    • Mike M
      posted February 12, 2010 by Mike MSuper Contributor

      I know this thread is a bit old, but clarifiers and hydraulic lifts are such common issues, that I think this thread is worth revitalizing.

      First, as has been said above, I have never heard the term "flammable waste trap." It's what caught my eye on this thread... I thought maybe there was some device I'd never heard of that I should learn more about!

      As also has been said by the others, this structure sounds like a standard clarifier. Using proper terminology in Phase Is is important, to prevent ambiguity. I see consultants use all sorts of odd terms for common items, and it frequently leads to confusion.

      In general, I don't consider hydraulic lifts and clarifiers at auto repair facilities to be RECs (Note: I said "in general"... there are always exceptions, and each site has to be evaluated on its own merits).

      Heather is 100% correct... SBA is extremely conservative when it comes to features such as clarifiers and hoists. But, in my opinion, they are sometimes TOO conservative, which can kill a deal over a non-issue item.

      Here's some canned language I like to use for clarifiers and hoists (I posted part of this in another thread that was similar). Feel free to use it, but modify it for the specifics of your site and send me a nickel each time you use it. I should have enough for a cup of coffee by the end of the year.

      Clarifiers:

       

      A three-stage clarifier is present outside of the west side of the building. This is essentially a  concrete vault, through which water passes prior to sewer discharge. The pipe on the inlet side is at a higher elevation than the discharge pipe. Therefore, floating oil tends to remain in the vault rather than discharging to the sewer. The only source of discharge to the clarifier at this site is general floor washdown, which generates minimal amounts of water.  Because oil entering this type of clarifier system (sometimes also called an oil/water separator) floats on the water, it typically does not come into contact with the base of the clarifier, which further minimizes leak potential. Motor oil does not tend to migrate in soil, and therefore when releases are found, they are typically very localized. Clarifiers can be of concern at industrial sites where solvents are discharged. They become increasing concerns at older industrial facilities, where their integrity may be compromised by age (ex: cracks, holes). At typical auto repair facilities such as the subject site, clarifiers pose little concern.   When contamination is detected, it is a generally a de minimis condition (i.e. below that requiring regulatory agency involvement).

      Hydraulic Lifts:

       

      One 'in-ground" vehicle lift is present in one of the service bays. In-ground lifts have most of their components below grade, as opposed to surface-mount lift systems. Lifts operate by transferring hydraulic fluid, under pressure, among the components. Therefore, there is a reservoir of fluid within the system. Typical automotive lifts contain about 30 to 50 gallons of fluid (some high pressure systems use as few as 5 to 10 gallons). Typically, the fluid is within a piston chamber, which is within a steel housing. Therefore, the basic design provides secondary spill containment. Please note that the reservoirs are not regulated as USTs. Removal of inactive lifts is typically regulated by local municipalities. Some require their removal and some do not. In some instances, the oversight agency may require soil sampling in the vicinity of a lift at the time of removal. It is our experience that when leaks are discovered, the area of impacted soil is highly localized, and is simply over-excavated during lift removal. Hydraulic fluid is quite immobile in soil. It does not contain volatile organic compounds, solvents, or other chemicals that tend to migrate in soil/groundwater. For lifts older than 1979, there is a possibility that the hydraulic fluid may contain PCBs, which could result in a higher soil disposal cost. However, because of the small volume typically involved, such costs are not prohibitive. The subject building was constructed in approximately 1989, and therefore there is no PCB concern.  As such, vehicle lifts represent minimal environmental risk. When contamination is detected, it is a generally a de minimis condition (i.e. below that requiring regulatory agency involvement).